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Poster: midnight sun Date: Dec 30, 2009 1:32am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: First 74 Slipknot prototype?

a year or so ago someone posted a link to a show that featured what was believed to be the first early prototype to the Slipknot theme...if memory serves, Jer was only noodling around a single diminished 7th arpeggio, not the different modulations of the Slipknot theme, but nonetheless the same "lick"...thought it was in the middle of a jam somewhere, perhaps a performance in July???

anyone recall the show?

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Dec 30, 2009 1:43pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: First 74 Slipknot prototype?

There is a list of the '74 Slipknots here (about five I'm aware of) -
http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=280194

I don't remember any from '73, but there might be one hiding somewhere....

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Poster: elbow1126 Date: Dec 30, 2009 6:30am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: First 74 Slipknot prototype?

It does show up on 2-23-74 as Rich mentioned (although I think its in TOO not Eyes) as well as the night before during PITB.

http://www.archive.org/details/gd74-02-22.sbd.patched.sirmick.21539.sbeok.shnf

I posted about this a few years ago asking if there were any earlier ones, no one came up with anything.

http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=180722

The Eyes with the what many (including those at deadlists) refer to as the first slipknot! is 6-20-74.

This post was modified by elbow1126 on 2009-12-30 14:30:38

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Poster: RBNW....new and improved! Date: Dec 30, 2009 12:53pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: First 74 Slipknot prototype?

eyes of the world.....Final Answer!!!!!

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Poster: elbow1126 Date: Dec 30, 2009 1:08pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: First 74 Slipknot prototype?

Check out the 12 min mark of the TOO.

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Poster: RBNW....new and improved! Date: Dec 30, 2009 4:01pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: First 74 Slipknot prototype?

Reviewer: happy420 - [4.0 out of 5 stars] - July 5, 2005
Subject: Early strains of
The lyrics for "Help on the Way" had not been completed by the first performance on 6/17/75...that version is complete, but instrumental.

Licks that would become the segue between "Help on the Way" and "Slipknot" appear in a number of jams in '74...turning up in "Playin", "the Other One", and "Eyes of the World".

This "Eyes" has a jam that was typical of the era which has modal movement very similar to "Slipnot" but without some of the more developed melodic themes...from about 9:30 to the very distinct melodic statement around 11:00 it is PURE "Slipknot". This is followed by a syncopated theme that appears around 12:00 and is repeated a couple times leading to the end of the jam.

I believe this series of themes were originally one continiual flow (probably the result of an improvisation which they then expounded upon in further performances), it would be interesting to find the first "Eyes" with this arrangement added at the end of the jam and trace it's development from there. Once the "Slipknot" themes started to take on a life of their own, the whole segment was dropped from "Eyes".

Jerry obviously had those figures in his head for quite a while before figuring out what to do with them.

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Poster: chinarider79 Date: Dec 30, 2009 4:14pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: First 74 Slipknot prototype?

I'm waiting to hear LiA's take on this, but I think what you and a lot of other people are hearing more closely resembles the intro to King Solomon's Marbles. I've been searching thru many of the early Eyes and keep finding the same mistake made in the reviews. Even the good Dr. Flashback has this portion mis-identified as an early Slip!

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Poster: elbow1126 Date: Dec 30, 2009 9:50pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: First 74 Slipknot prototype?

Here is what he said in his recent posts about jams:

"SLIPKNOT JAM
Slipknot was just a riff in '74; in the studio in '75 the Dead would work it into the "space-jazz" section of a new suite. So it's interesting to hear the Dead (particularly Garcia) toying with this new riff in some '74 shows, seeing what they could do with it. Also note how far removed it is from the more melodic, accessible jam-riffs they had done in previous years!
http://www.archive.org/details/gd74-02-22.sbd.patched.sirmick.21539.sbeok.shnf (in Playing)

Here is the whole thread.
http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=280194
http://www.archive.org/details/gd74-02-23.sbd.clugston.3382.sbeok.shnf (in the Other One)
http://www.archive.org/details/gd74-06-20.sbd.clugston.2179.sbeok.shnf (19 minutes into Eyes)
http://www.archive.org/details/gd74-07-25.sbd.miller.12656.sbeok.shnf (21 minutes into Dark Star)
http://www.archive.org/details/gd1974-10-20.sbd.smith-lee.GEMS.97193.flac16 (14 minutes into Eyes)

'73 and '74 saw the jams opening up in all directions. There are a number of gnarly riffs that get repeated from show to show (particularly by Phil), but without names or identities they're hard to pin down. The repeating-riff jam at the end of Eyes in these years is very similar to Stronger Than Dirt, and often gets called that, but I think it's a distinct piece. Stronger Than Dirt may have evolved from it, though - check out the Eyes>Dirt from 8-13-75 (One From The Vault) to hear the difference from the '73/74 jam."

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Poster: elbow1126 Date: Dec 30, 2009 9:58pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: First 74 Slipknot prototype?

There has been much debate about the "slipknot!" jam in Eyes. Here is an interesting discussion that occurred a few years ago here:

http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=162261

Here is what LIA wrote about it in his recent post about jams.

"SLIPKNOT JAM
Slipknot was just a riff in '74; in the studio in '75 the Dead would work it into the "space-jazz" section of a new suite. So it's interesting to hear the Dead (particularly Garcia) toying with this new riff in some '74 shows, seeing what they could do with it. Also note how far removed it is from the more melodic, accessible jam-riffs they had done in previous years!
http://www.archive.org/details/gd74-02-22.sbd.patched.sirmick.21539.sbeok.shnf (in Playing)

Here is the whole thread.
http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=280194
http://www.archive.org/details/gd74-02-23.sbd.clugston.3382.sbeok.shnf (in the Other One)
http://www.archive.org/details/gd74-06-20.sbd.clugston.2179.sbeok.shnf (19 minutes into Eyes)
http://www.archive.org/details/gd74-07-25.sbd.miller.12656.sbeok.shnf (21 minutes into Dark Star)
http://www.archive.org/details/gd1974-10-20.sbd.smith-lee.GEMS.97193.flac16 (14 minutes into Eyes)

'73 and '74 saw the jams opening up in all directions. There are a number of gnarly riffs that get repeated from show to show (particularly by Phil), but without names or identities they're hard to pin down. The repeating-riff jam at the end of Eyes in these years is very similar to Stronger Than Dirt, and often gets called that, but I think it's a distinct piece. Stronger Than Dirt may have evolved from it, though - check out the Eyes>Dirt from 8-13-75 (One From The Vault) to hear the difference from the '73/74 jam."

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Dec 31, 2009 2:21am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: First 74 Slipknot prototype?

First - that is an EXCELLENT thread from 2007 you linked to. Don't see too many collaborations like that these days. Wonder what year gilamonster is up to by now....

Also, chinarider is right about Slipknot. Has nothing to do with the end-jam in Eyes, but lots of people make that mistake.
The riff ending Eyes in '73/74 DOES sound similar to that King Solomon's Marbles/Stronger Than Dirt/Milkin the Turkey riff. But they're not the same. As you quoted - if you want to hear a real Eyes>King Solomon (the only one), check 8/13/75.

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Poster: RBNW....new and improved! Date: Dec 30, 2009 1:38am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: First 74 Slipknot prototype?

http://www.archive.org/details/gd74-02-23.sbd.bertha-ashley.26362.sbeok.shnf I do believe this is what you are looking for....during eyes of the world!

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Poster: chinarider79 Date: Dec 30, 2009 11:52am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: First 74 Slipknot prototype?

the Playin from the night before also contains a Slipknot!

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Poster: midnight sun Date: Dec 30, 2009 8:21pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: First 74 Slipknot prototype?

WOW!!! i'm completely overwhelmed by the responses here in every sense of the word...thanks to ALL of you for the input and links...i would like to take some time to carefully consider these developments as well as the connection to Stronger Than Dirt before revisiting

the reason i'm fascinated by these early Slipknots is that i believe this to be Jer's first "conscious" departure from "diatonic" structure into equal division of the octave (within "diatonic" structure i include the five common modes as well as "blue notes" and "passing tones" and other associated variations which tend to have rather limited applications)

the diminished 7th arpeggio (or chord) is formed by 4 consecutive minor third intervals (equal division of the octave, Cdim7 = C,Eb,Gb,A,C) although diminished chords show up in earlier compositions such as Deal and Comes A time, they are used only as a "passing chord" from one chord to another with limited time for exploration...Let It Grow features an example of a diminished 7th chord (Bdim7) for bars 3 and 4 of the verse that stands on its own and is technically not a passing chord as it returns back to the tonic chord for bars 5 and 6 (Amin7) but here again, the duration is too short to allow for any in depth exploration...by contrast, at least one jazz "fake book" shows a Gdim7 chord for the entire first 12 bars of the verse to the jazz standard, "Caravan"

Jer also explores what some educators call a "double diminished" scale that can be heard as early as the Slipknot jam New Years 76 (Cdim7 double diminished scale = B,C,D,Eb,F,Gb,Ab,A or, semi-tone, tone, semi-tone, tone...)

the other common equal division of the octave concept is the augmented triad (3 consecutive major 3rd intervals, Caug = C,E,G#,C) and its associated whole tone scale (6 consecutive major 2nd intervals, C,D,E,F#,G#,A#,C) examples of these are a bit more difficult to pin down...Lost Sailor has what could be considered an Aaug7(alt9) chord in the turn around...i also hear Garcia making extensive use of whole tone scales during the "Space" sequences in the 80's, but i'm at a loss to discover when he first started to cultivate this...btw, Wayne Shorter's composition, "Ju-Ju" incorporates a Baug7 chord for the entire first 8 bars of the form

it is worth noting that conventional guitar tuning using intervals of 4th's between the strings came about centuries ago when almost all music was diatonic in nature...equal division of the octave does not "lay" very well within this tuning scenario with the exception of the major 3rd interval between the 3rd and 2nd strings, which provides some relief to the fingering issues surrounding equal division of the octave concepts

[as a side note, i know a jazz guitarist who tunes all of his strings in fourths (the 1st and 2nd strings tuned to F and C respectively) it works out quite well for his chosen idiom but is entirely unsuitable for diatonic contexts (just try a bar chord with this tuning and you will quickly realize the dilemma), if anything he chose the wrong direction, he would have gained far easier and more conducive jazz voicings by tuning all of his guitar strings to major 3rd intervals, not 4th's]

perhaps i should clarify my intentions here, music theory is intended to allow for organization and understanding of musical concepts as well as to facilitate musicians in associating musical sounds to concepts that can be easily applied to their instruments...it only explains what HAS been done, not necessarily what CAN or WILL be done, and is is in no way to be used as a weapon to demonstrate false superiority of different appreciations...appreciation is entirely subjective...even intonation (which can be clinically proven with common electronic devices that record frequencies) is entirely subjective...examples; the East Indian use of quarter tones and traditional Japanese classical propensity to adjust pitches comparatively sharp...just because it sounds "off" to us is no reason to assume it doesn't make perfect sense within the context of their cultures


thanks again for all the responses, if any of you or anyone else has more to add i will be referencing this thread over the following weeks and would greatly appreciate any further input, particularly to any 73 references that might be uncovered


yous guys rock!!!

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Poster: spacedface Date: Dec 31, 2009 3:02pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: First 74 Slipknot prototype?

I think that snippets of Slipknot are in the Playin' and The Other One (here start at 3:00) in this show:

http://www.archive.org/details/gd1972-09-28.sbd.miller.94268.sbeok.flac16

This post was modified by spacedface on 2009-12-31 23:02:41

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Poster: suasponte Date: Dec 30, 2009 6:23am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: First 74 Slipknot prototype?

Though it made "unlabeled" appearances in 1973, dates that I cannot recall.